Categories: Garden

Question:

… rain drops, fallin’

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"For an art experience more or less guaranteed to deliver the goods, though, "Van Gogh Draftsman: The Masterpieces," at the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam, seems like a good bet (July 1 to Sept. 18). The Dutch artist was a fantastic draftsman, his line as rhythmic and reactive as a cardiograph reading. And his drawings aren’t souped-up and hysterical, the way his paintings sometimes are. Information: either www.vangoghmuseum.nl or (31-20) 570-5200." ~ Holland Cotter, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -From The New York Times

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Pieter Claesz Still Lifes The Frans Hals Museum ~ Haarlem, The Netherlands … Will be exhibiting the best still lifes by Pieter Claesz (1596/1597 – 1660). 27 November 2004 ~ 3 April 2005 Pieter Claesz portrays everyday objects, A rummer, A tin plate and a herring in such a way That they exude A spellbinding beauty. http://www.franshalsmuseum.com/index_en.html … other options … ~ * The Netherlands * ~ Allard Pierson Museum Amsterdam Historical Museum Bonnefanten Museum Centraal Museum Cobra Museum De Pont De Vleeshal Frisia Museum Gate Foundation Gemeentemuseum Den Haag Groninger Museum Kr

Categories: Garden

Question:

: THOUSANDS OF LOWER EAST SIDE GARDENERS & COMMUNITY PROTEST THE DESTRUCTION : OF THE ABC GARDEN WITH A 50 FOOT-LONG MEMORY WALL & SAVE OUR NEIGHBORHOOD! : PROTEST !!! By examining the other groups to which this was posted, I think we can assume this in happening in New York City.  It would be nice if Mr. Whalen would consider that some of the groups to which he posted have world-wide distribution and actually mention NYC in his post. Of course, I forgot that "The Big Apple" is the absolute center of the known universe!  Heh, heh. — Michael T. Nelson == Real-Time Controls == Embedded Systems Specialists voice: 1-415-367-9274    | "Don’t let the bytes bug you." – Ravan L.’95 fax:   1-415-367-6112    |  motorcycles: 1988 BMW K75c, 1990 BMW R100GS http://wco.com/~mnelson/ |  commute bicycle: 1995 BikeE recumbent

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I urge you to do all you can to save the gardens. Being surrounded by naturre is important. I can’t imagine what it must be like in NYC. All I know of NYC I have been told by a woman who moved from the Chelsea dist. of Manhatten. She couldn’t believe how beautiful our part of America is. But I urge you to do ALL you can to keep as much of nature in your environment as possible. Our state is growing rapidly & I hope the Willamette Valley doesn’t get paved over. Struggle to keep the gardens. Mother Nature is worth working for. David Zeit in Oregon’s Mid Willamette Valley

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THOUSANDS OF LOWER EAST SIDE GARDENERS & COMMUNITY PROTEST THE DESTRUCTION OF THE ABC GARDEN WITH A 50 FOOT-LONG MEMORY WALL & SAVE OUR NEIGHBORHOOD! PROTEST !!! Sunday October 22, 1995, 1-4pm ABC Garden (8th Street Bet. Aves. B & C) On Sunday, October 22nd from 1-4pm, the ABC Gardeners, who successfully defended their land against destruction by the Roachco film company last April are PROTESTING * The slated eviction and destruction of ABC GARDEN by the City. *  The destruction of several of the larger community Gardens, currently on a proposed list of middle-income housing sites including: 6th & B, 9th & C, La Plaza Cultural, and Green Oasis. * The impending evictions of vital community, cultural, and gathering spaces including: ABC No Rio, the Gas Station, The Learning Alliance, THE SAVE OUR NEIGHBORHOOD! PROTEST will feature: * Gardeners and creating a giant 50 foot-long MEMORY WALL with paintings, photo collage, poetry, stories, and garden memories. * Music by local performers * An Herb Walk around the garden with herbalist Violet Snow * Lower East Side Garden Land Trust information, regarding the new coalition of gardeners, community people, and organizations that have formed a land trust to permanently preserve the gardens. * A Pot-Luck Lunch The gardens provide an invaluable natural, as well as cultural resource, for thousands of people in the community, including: needed open space, fresh air, trees, and flowers; outdoor environmental and gardening classes for school children; multi-cultural centers, featuring theater, music, arts programs, public festivals and events;  inter-faith churches for religious ceremonies, weddings and funerals; healing centers for seniors, the handicapped, and those struggling with AIDS; and a place to grow vegetables, compost, and recycle. The gardens have also removed the drug dealers from these former untended vacant lots, removed sites of toxic waste dumping, reduced crime by attracting children on the streets and engaging them in a positive life affirming activity, and relieved tensions that exist between the diverse cultural and special interest groups, by uniting people through nature to get to know one another and discover their common interests and goals.To replace these spaces with parking lots and housing projects will be a tremendous loss to the residents of the Lower East Side.The gardeners invite the community members to join their celebration to defend their neighborhood from development that would turn the Lower East Side into a concrete luxury wasteland, and destroy the environmental and cultural heritage of the low-income community residents. —         "A reasonable man accepts the conditon of the world he sees around himself, and adapts his wants and desires appropriately. An Unreasonable man seeks to change the world to suit his wants and desires. Therefore, all progress is the work of unreasonable men."—Kung Fu Tsi (AKA Confucious)           "Who says I have to be reasonable?" —Josh

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Categories: Garden

Question:

And… it made me smile. I’ve been depressed so this was nice.

Anne, I hope you feel better soon. I guess the surgery must have been quite a stress on you. Chip — The charter is available at:

Categories: Garden

Question:

Hi Gill I agree with Lula, the books are beautiful.  Ms. Beck has done four books and they are all lovely.  You may not be able to get her first book because it was done in 1979.  Her other three I believe are still available. Embroidered Gardens – 1979 The Embroiderer’s Garden – 1988 The Embroiderer’s Flowers – 1992 The Embroiderer’s Story – 1995 Happy Stitching EdithNYC

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Thanks Edith and Pam for posting the correct titles of the Thomasina Beck books. There’s so much wonderful info in them and the Embroider’s Garden was my all time favorite needlwork book! There’s definitely something inspiring about gardens and botanicals for needlework – colors, patterns, whimsies and so on…. — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lula, You were close and I kept thinking I had heard of this book…tonite it hit… book review in our EGA chapter newsletter by a member. "Gardening with Silk and Gold" is a revision of the 1979 Embroidered Gardens by Thomasina Beck.  There are additional gorgeous plates, clear photographs, and some inspiring line drawings. — Pam Thompson Hi Gill I agree with Lula, the books are beautiful.  Ms. Beck has done four books and they are all lovely.  You may not be able to get her first book because it was done in 1979.  Her other three I believe are still available. Embroidered Gardens – 1979 The Embroiderer’s Garden – 1988 The Embroiderer’s Flowers – 1992 The Embroiderer’s Story – 1995 Happy Stitching EdithNYC

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Has anyone seen/read the book called the Embroiderer’s Garden by Thomasina Beck?  If discussion about it doesn’t belong on this newsgroup, does anyone know a more suitable newsgroup, please? The book/ideas/hints are amazing to my mind.  And it suggests integrated embroidery and needlepoint, which I’m sure others have done well before this book.   If you are familiar with this book/artist, please let me know if you know any similar resources.  I find this book unbelievably inspirational.  Thanks.

 There are several more books by this author – "Gardening with gold and silver", "The Embroiderers Flowers"and "The Embroidererers Story" come to my mind immediatley – as I have them here in my shelf. They are indeed an encyclopaedia of knowledge and inspiration – and I like to browse them here and there, just for fun! best regards,   Martina     ***   Martina Weber   "Chatelaine"   Design and Needlearts   Duisburg/Germany * http://www.chatelaine.net == FREE CHARTS for download Please visit that cute "hamster" – site …. http://www.magic-web.net/home/manuela-weber/

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I have all of them and I like the Embroider’s Garden best absolutely. I found a good deal of them in second hand shops and maybe even Ruth Kern could help you find them.  She is a delight….barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Edith and Pam for posting the correct titles of the Thomasina Beck books. There’s so much wonderful info in them and the Embroider’s Garden was my all time favorite needlwork book! There’s definitely something inspiring about gardens and botanicals for

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Are people (regular people…) producing much original work like is found in the Beck books?  I was blown away from the examples in the book, and wonder if many or few people are producing work of such beauty, originality, etc.  I’d never seen work quite like is found in the book.

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I’m sorry but who is Barbara Kern?

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I mean Ruth Kern.

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How exciting to have the second entry I’ve ever made into a newsgroup spur so many informed and interesting exchanges! I stumbled on the Beck book I mentioned and though low on money, HAD to buy it on the spot for its inspiration and in case it might be hard to find.  (I’m just returning to hand-sewing after years of working 60-hour weeks as a professor which I’ve sort of left behind–so I don’t know much about availability or anything about needlework trends.)  I’m excited to learn its one of the favorites of many of you who responded. Clarification:  Was the 79 book Embroidered Gardens   revised as                     Gardening with Silk and Gold? So is the book I bought, The Embroiderer’s Garden (can’t find a date in the book), a completely different volume/contents from the above? As to the conversion between needlework and gardening/floral motifs– their interconnectability (is that a word??) really is fascinating.   That’s probably worth discussing.  I’ll reenter when I’ve thought of something worth sharing under the subject "sewing gardens".  I can feel in my bones that there’re some important connections there–some obvious and others perhaps not so.

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I saw lots of it in France when I studied there. barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are people (regular people…) producing much original work like is found in the Beck books?  I was blown away from the examples in the book, and wonder if many or few people are producing work of such beauty, originality, etc.  I’d never seen work quite like is found in the book.

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I’m sorry but who is Barbara Kern?

Ruth Kern is great and sells used and new needlework books.

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Hi Gill Since you like Thomasina Beck there is another needleworker that I think you will also like.  Her name is Helen M. Stevens from England.  Her books are also beautiful.  They are: The Timeless Art of Embroidery – 1997 The Embroiderer’s Countryside – 1992 The Embroiderer’s Country Album – 1994 Her stitching and designs are lovely. Happy Stitching EdithNYC

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Yes, I know there are "regular" people producing "art" needlework Even though I am a designer by trade, what I do for myself would be considered needlework art as I use the medium of needlework – the threads and fabrics as my paints and canvas to "paint" original images. What’s so fascinating about needlework art is how varied and unique the uses of threads, fabrics, techniques and embellishments can be used to create surface design – I love the feel and texture of textile art. Fiberarts is a magazine devoted to the more artistic side of textile arts found on newsstands that you might be interested in checking out for more inspiration – there are usually annoucements and articles on embroidered art pieces featured. Piecework is another mag featuring historical and often interesting features on esoteric, historical and popular needlework techniques. — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are people (regular people…) producing much original work like is found in the Beck books?  I was blown away from the examples in the book, and wonder if many or few people are producing work of such beauty, originality, etc.  I’d never seen work quite like is found in the book.

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Nature has been a featured inspiration to the arts and expecially textile arts from the beginning of mankind! A lot of textile art/surface design is botanical in nature with stylized patterns of plants and animals featured – sometimes so stylized that at first glance look more similar to graphic repeat patterns rather than the original florals that inspired it. Oriental rug patterns come to mind with their stylized pattern motifs based on gardens and botanicals as gardens/oasis/water were the ultimate in a desert existence – the very idea of heaven on earth. In the study of fine arts programs – there is a very heavy emphasis on studying the historical aspects of art for the origins and relationships of ethnic and cultural influences influencing the arts from the beginning to it’s influences on western art that most are familiar with today. Yes, the second Beck Gardening with Silk and Gold is a revised and updated version of the first Beck Embroider’s Garden. I have both books as I found the newer version worth buying for the updated info and new pictures. — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Clarification:  Was the 79 book Embroidered Gardens   revised as                     Gardening with Silk and Gold? So is the book I bought, The Embroiderer’s Garden (can’t find a date in the book), a completely different volume/contents from the above? As to the conversion between needlework and gardening/floral motifs– their interconnectability (is that a word??) really is fascinating. That’s probably worth discussing.  I’ll reenter when I’ve thought of something worth sharing under the subject "sewing gardens".  I can feel in my bones that there’re some important connections there–some obvious and others perhaps not so.

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The magazine Piecework is truly the only journal ,if you will,allowable of it’s kind for education/design classes.  It is truly well done and I am proud to say it is from my state of Colorado (even though I have deserted it and live in Virginia at the moment).  I have used it as a reference for many years in design classes and it has really allowed hand textiles( as we call them in my business) to a new level of acceptance.  We have journals for other home-production structures–architecture,ceram,wall,plaster, but it is the only one for interior design including hand textiles… So proud it has made it.  I have the very firt copy signed!  barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I know there are "regular" people producing "art" needlework Even though I am a designer by trade, what I do for myself would be considered needlework art as I use the medium of needlework – the threads and fabrics as my paints and canvas to "paint" original images. What’s so fascinating about needlework art is how varied and unique the uses of threads, fabrics, techniques and embellishments can be used to create surface design – I love the feel and texture of textile art. Fiberarts is a magazine devoted to the more artistic side of textile arts found on newsstands that you might be interested in checking out for more inspiration – there are usually annoucements and articles on embroidered art pieces featured. Piecework is another mag featuring historical and often interesting features on esoteric, historical and popular needlework techniques. — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures Are people (regular people…) producing much original work like is found in the Beck books?  I was blown away from the examples in the book, and wonder if many or few people are producing work of such beauty, originality, etc.  I’d never seen work quite like is found in the book.

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The magazine Piecework is truly the only journal ,if you will,allowable of it’s kind for education/design classes.  It is truly well done and I am proud to say it is from my state of Colorado (even though I have deserted it and live in Virginia at the moment).  I have used it as a reference for many years in design classes and it has really allowed hand textiles( as we call them in my business) to a new level of acceptance.  We have journals for other home-production structures–architecture,ceram,wall,plaster, but it is the only one for interior design including hand textiles… So proud it has made it.  I have the very first copy signed!  barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I know there are "regular" people producing "art" needlework Even though I am a designer by trade, what I do for myself would be considered needlework art as I use the medium of needlework – the threads and fabrics as my paints and canvas to "paint" original images. What’s so fascinating about needlework art is how varied and unique the uses of threads, fabrics, techniques and embellishments can be used to create surface design – I love the feel and texture of textile art. Fiberarts is a magazine devoted to the more artistic side of textile arts found on newsstands that you might be interested in checking out for more inspiration – there are usually annoucements and articles on embroidered art pieces featured. Piecework is another mag featuring historical and often interesting features on esoteric, historical and popular needlework techniques. — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures Are people (regular people…) producing much original work like is found in the Beck books?  I was blown away from the examples in the book, and wonder if many or few people are producing work of such beauty, originality, etc.  I’d never seen work quite like is found in the book.

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When studying in Paris at the Cluny, almost all medieval work is inspired by nature as well.  I brought back an entire bolt of Cluny tapestry loomed across the street from it under my arm and have two upholstered pieces of furniture of it now in my tapestry room.  It is really all based on stylized nature work. Nature has been a featured inspiration to the arts and expecially textile arts from the beginning of mankind! A lot of textile art/surface design is botanical in nature with stylized patterns of plants and animals featured – sometimes so stylized that at first glance look more similar to graphic repeat patterns rather than the original florals that inspired it.

Absolutely!  Between my book on elements and the one now on Byzantine work, I studied African cultue and it still had nature as a theme… In the study of fine arts programs – there is a very heavy emphasis on studying the historical aspects of art for the origins and relationships of ethnic and cultural influences influencing the arts from the beginning to it’s influences on western art that most are familiar with today.

I also agree the second book is better for sure!  You people have encouraged me to pull those old books out and will probably get a chance to look at them this weekend sometime.  Haven’t pulled them out for – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, the second Beck Gardening with Silk and Gold is a revised and updated version of the first Beck Embroider’s Garden. I have both books as I found the newer version worth buying for the updated info and new pictures.

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Thomasina Beck’s books are available in hard back and soft back versions from her publisher, David & Charles in the UK and some are also available from Amazon’s site.  Email me if any of you need any more info on David & Charles.  We had an interview with Thomasina Beck in issue 4 and Helen Stevens in issue 22.  See our website if any of you are interested in obtaining back issues. Liz  http://www.classicstitches.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Posted At:         06 January 1999 17:06 Posted To:         needlework Conversation:      EMBROIDERY;THOMASINA BECK Has anyone seen/read the book called the Embroiderer’s Garden by Thomasina Beck?  If discussion about it doesn’t belong on this newsgroup, does anyone know a more suitable newsgroup, please? The book/ideas/hints are amazing to my mind.  And it suggests integrated embroidery and needlepoint, which I’m sure others have done well before this book.   If you are familiar with this book/artist, please let me know if you know any similar resources.  I find this book unbelievably inspirational.  Thanks.

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Much obliged.

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Thank you for your response.  That’s the kind of info I am looking for.  I agree–though my comments may be naive–the combination somehow of the picture image and the texture of the medium is fascinating and seems to multiply the possibilities.  I am very interest in this phenomenon. Do you think Fiberarts is easily available on newstands?  Would you suggest something like Borders mag rack–which seems to be huge?

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I replied to you on the newsgroup, then saw I can do both at once.   I also wanted to mention that I often think of my (outdoor) gardening and (indoor) flower arranging as "painting with flowers".  I think I’ve also seen this phrase used in various gardening books I’ve read.   I’m sure Jekyll would’ve had to have used it.

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Lula, You were close and I kept thinking I had heard of this book…tonite it hit… book review in our EGA chapter newsletter by a member. "Gardening with Silk and Gold" is a revision of the 1979 Embroidered Gardens by Thomasina Beck.  There are additional gorgeous plates, clear photographs, and some inspiring line drawings.   — Pam Thompson —nothing clever here at the moment— WIP- EGA GCC Drawn Thread Sampler #1, EGA SCR Seminar98-Blue Heron by Pat Morse, EGA Workshop -White Iris by Jean Taggart  plus numerous monthly meeting projects from EGA The Woodlands Chapter, Trip around the World 98 remove gb.girl for e-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thomasina Beck is one of my favorite British needlework book authors. The book you mention ‘Embroider’s Garden’ is a beautifully, illusrated inspirational book for all stitchers, no matter what techniques they favor and one of my all time favorites. There is an updated version of this book, I think Threads of Silver and Gold (?) – I’m laid up at the moment and don’t have the book in front of me so can’t tell you the exact title but it’s a continuation of the above book.

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Has anyone seen/read the book called the Embroiderer’s Garden by Thomasina Beck?  If discussion about it doesn’t belong on this newsgroup, does anyone know a more suitable newsgroup, please? The book/ideas/hints are amazing to my mind.  And it suggests integrated embroidery and needlepoint, which I’m sure others have done well before this book.   If you are familiar with this book/artist, please let me know if you know any similar resources.  I find this book unbelievably inspirational.  Thanks.

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Thomasina Beck is one of my favorite British needlework book authors. The book you mention ‘Embroider’s Garden’ is a beautifully, illusrated inspirational book for all stitchers, no matter what techniques they favor and one of my all time favorites. There is an updated version of this book, I think Threads of Silver and Gold (?) – I’m laid up at the moment and don’t have the book in front of me so can’t tell you the exact title but it’s a continuation of the above book. I have three of Beck’s books – the other is about the history of embroidery (sorry don’t have the exact title) but I’m sure you can find it doing a search in needlework, bookshops or checking the following site which features many needlework books. http://www.WyndhamNeedleworks.com/ If you like Beck’s books for inspiration – look for books by Jan Messent another British author who has written many inspiring needlework books on many techniques, all wonderfully creative, colorful and enjoyable to read. — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone seen/read the book called the Embroiderer’s Garden by Thomasina Beck?   The book/ideas/hints are amazing to my mind.  And it suggests integrated embroidery and needlepoint, which I’m sure others have done well before this book. If you are familiar with this book/artist, please let me know if you know any similar resources.  I find this book unbelievably inspirational.  Thanks.

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Categories: Garden

Question:

Absolutely agree with you. I personally feel that the stitchers of old samplers put some of their personalities in their work, and I think that is one of the reasons that they appeal so much. Currently I am working on a sampler that commemorates the year 2000. I use old motifs and my own designs, and want it to reflect some of the things that are important in my life. So far I have done a very old border motif 1500 or so?, a tree of life with deer. I intend to add forget-me-nots, some stellar motifs, a yin-yang symbol, some orchids (my parents ran a nursery), fireworks… Hmm, better start working on it again…     Caroline As stitchers, I think it might be important for us to design our own personal samplers which might tell a story about us (if our samplers live that long <g).  I’ve been giving it some thought and intend to stitch a "personal" sampler, probably with some family names and personal info–possibly where I’ve lived (I’ve moved around.)  I am thinking of including stitching some of the "small things" of everyday life.  I am not a designer, nor artist, but I find the more I do samplers, the more I want to leave my "own" behind. Anna Lynn

– Visit my ‘Embroidery in the Netherlands’ pages at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~retort/index.html

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As stitchers, I think it might be important for us to design our own personal samplers which might tell a story about us (if our samplers live that long <g).  I’ve been giving it some thought and intend to stitch a "personal" sampler, probably with some family names and personal info–possibly where I’ve lived (I’ve moved around.)  I am thinking of including stitching some of the "small things" of everyday life.  I am not a designer, nor artist, but I find the more I do samplers, the more I want to leave my "own" behind. Anna Lynn

This is a wonderful idea. I just read in Thea Dueck’s latest newsletter that she just led a  class in learning how to design a sampler. Each class member worked on creating her own individual ideas. This sounds like an idea whose time to bloom is right now! — Nan Laugh before you are happy because otherwise you might die before having laughed. –Jean de La Bruyere. Too much reading hinders knowledge. We think we know what we have read, and consider ourselves excused from learning it. –Rousseau

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I created an original XS sampler in 1975 right after I taught myself counted thread stitching, to record a move to a new State and house we bought. Basing this own a typical sampler format, stitched a stylized version of my house, a fence, tree and massed colorful X flowers with my own verse and border along with date, place and name. All was stitched with wool on a fairly large count of Aida. Now after 20 years, this basic beginner XS sampler is a nice piece of memory hanging on my wall. Another sampler I started on similar lines was when we moved and bought another house, resides in my Shaker sewing box half finished as new interestes took hold of me. All the DMC skeins and sampler itself are neatly rolled in the box and someday, someone will look and see this as another example of late 20th century needlework as the date had  been stitched in, speculating on why I didn’t finish my second sampler! — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As stitchers, I think it might be important for us to design our own personal samplers which might tell a story about us (if our samplers live that long <g).  I’ve been giving it some thought and intend to stitch a "personal" sampler, probably with some family names and personal info–possibly where I’ve lived (I’ve moved around.)  I am thinking of including stitching some of the "small things" of everyday life.  I am not a designer, nor artist, but I find the more I do samplers, the more I want to leave my "own" behind. Anna Lynn This is a wonderful idea. I just read in Thea Dueck’s latest newsletter that she just led a  class in learning how to design a sampler. Each class member worked on creating her own individual ideas. This sounds like an idea whose time to bloom is right now! — Nan

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This is kind of on this topic: I have an entire list of Sampler Symbols online — http://www.winonanet.com/mktplace/tvenette/symbol.html Have to go — the baby’s hollering! T

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I think this would be a great piece of personal history to pass on to our children and grandchildren and the ones that come after that. Of course we would only include the good and wonderful things we have done with out lives. They don’t need to know all the goof ups we have made in our lives. I would also include some info about my parents and grandparents because I know I am having touble finding the names of my fathers relative. He never talked about them and now that he is gone it very hard to find out all the information I would like to have. And I do have to say I didn’t get interested until I had a grandchild of my own. Now I want to have the history of our famliy for her and am having trouble finding all that I would like. Maybe I will design an own going sampler for her.

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There are some lovely samplers that were designed using all the fonts available on a Macintosh. http://www.wizard.net/~rnb/home.htm ako

Lovely site, but that’s not it.  Does anyone still have them? We were passing the URL around a year or so ago… — Cindy Brown Cross-stitcher, quilter, designer, and cat-lover "My candle burns at both ends. It will not last the night. But ah, my foes and oh, my friends, It gives a lovely light!"                         – Edna St. Vincent Millay

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I think this would be a great piece of personal history to pass on to our children and grandchildren and the ones that come after that. Of course we would only include the good and wonderful things we have done with out lives. They don’t need to know all the goof ups we have made in our lives.

Although, don’t forget, if they have any wisdom at all, they will learn from our goof-ups and avoid making the same mistakes in their own lives.  My mom and I have had a lot of discussions about things that show up regularly throughout generations of our family, and how if we don’t recognise them and change they will continue to do so. I would also include some info about my parents and grandparents because I know I am having touble finding the names of my fathers relative. He never talked about them and now that he is gone it very hard to find out all the information I would like to have. And I do have to say I didn’t get interested until I had a grandchild of my own. Now I want to have the history of our famliy for her and am having trouble finding all that I would like. Maybe I will design an own going sampler for her.

I have MLI’s "Mother’s Tree" that I plan to work up for my daughter, leaving space at the bottom for subsequent generations of mothers to be added. If/when I have a son, I plan to do the same, only as a "Father’s Tree."  Perhaps you could do something similar to this, saying something about each person on the list as you go, like,"First midwife in Utah," or "Died in the effort to liberate France in WWII," or something like that? Lisa Richards

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As stitchers, I think it might be important for us to design our own personal samplers which might tell a story about us (if our samplers live that long <g).  I’ve been giving it some thought and intend to stitch a "personal" sampler, probably with some family names and personal info–possibly where I’ve lived (I’ve moved around.)  I am thinking of including stitching some of the "small things" of everyday life.  I am not a designer, nor artist, but I find the more I do samplers, the more I want to leave my "own" behind.   Anna Lynn

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Hi Ako, I vaguely remember seeing pictures of "tomato" shaped pincushions from the Victorian era so don’t think these red, round shaped pincushions are 20th century inventions. However, I’m not expert on old pincushions just an admirer of such sewing trinkets! So far, I only collect modern day pincushions! However, I love the idea of odd, unusual shaped pincushions and in the past, pincushions were really PIN cushions! Many of these tiny pillows were made with messages spelled out in pins arranged on the surface of the cushion and given as a friendship token or gift for a special occasion. If you’d like a little more info on pincushions and other needlework oddities check out this book from Dover originally published in 1928. Old Time Tools and Toys of Needlework by Gertrude Whiting ISBN 0-486-22517-8 As for contemporary sampler designers that stand out in my mind. I think Dawn Bradford of Sheepish Designs would be a good example of someone using old sampler motifs and ideas to create a whole new line of contemporary "old" looking designs as well as adaptations of some old pieces. Sandra Sullivan of Homespun Elegance, Mary Beale, Prairie Schooler and a host of other designers working in a similar vein of using old sampler ideas to create new samplers. I think it’s important too not to forget the old antique "classics" which can never be replaced as they are a link to our needlework past and stitchers continuing to make reproductions of such will keep the practice of samplers from becoming a dying or lost art in preserving the stitches and motifs. Our needlework heritage has gotten bigger since the first samplers were done and now we have our own repertoire of designs to add to someone else’s future needlework heritage! This is a good topic for discussion Ako and a very thoughtful question and comments on your part. Gave me something to think about while I was painting last night! — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a bit off topic but i’m interested in the fact that our most popular pincushion is shape like a tomato.   Is this a pretty new (20 century) thing? So which designer(s) do you think of as contemporary ones?   I strongly think that creating and passing on *our* samplers to the next century is as important as reproducing the great antique needle arts from the past ( I tend to love the antique designs better though).   Stitchers in the future would be thrilled to reproduce the works from late 20 century; that’ll be great I think =) Lula, thank you so much for your reply =)   I really enjoyed your message. ako

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I think there are several things that will distinguish our samplers. First, we are the first to use synthetic fibers to such a large and varied degree.  I know we had rayon from 19xx on but blending filament in all these colors, neon rays, wisper, all these things are all pretty "modern".  And we have fabrics made of synthetics as well.

I was thinking about only the design but how true to check out the difference of fibers and fabrics.  That’s so true. The last thing I can think of that we are contributing is modern fonts for lettering.  Since fonts are being invented all the time, as we use these we date the earliest that our samplers could have been created.

I’ve read something about different fonts in different time period and in different part of the county.   I’ve seen so many different types of motifs and fonts in those needleworks from the past and it seems that it’s hard to find ours.   Perhaps it would be much easier for people in the future to find the significance of our works.   After all,  the time is passing slowly (even the life is too short!); things (culture and our way of life) would not change 180 degrees over night.   Takes time to become the history I guess! Thanks Beverly =) ako

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There are some lovely samplers that were designed using all the fonts available on a Macintosh.

http://www.wizard.net/~rnb/home.htm ako

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One recent and still somewhat popular motif is the Sunflower being seen everywhere from fabrics, paper goods, pottery and more. Think of all those ubiquitous Ducks, Geese and Amish inspired designs of 10 years ago or so.

  As you mentioned about sunflowers and ducks and geese i was going "Yea! that’s so true!!!" Along these lines is the "Country Look" still influencing designs with checked borders being another noticeable decorative element.

Perhaps tomato, cow, apple, chiken…etc?   It’s a bit off topic but i’m interested in the fact that our most popular pincushion is shape like a tomato.   Is this a pretty new (20 century) thing? Overall, I’d think some of the more original, contemporary designs of samplers will stand out as typical of needlework sampler designs stitched in the late 20th Century rather than reproduction sampler

So which designer(s) do you think of as contemporary ones?   I strongly think that creating and passing on *our* samplers to the next century is as important as reproducing the great antique needle arts from the past ( I tend to love the antique designs better though).   Stitchers in the future would be thrilled to reproduce the works from late 20 century; that’ll be great I think =) Lula, thank you so much for your reply =)   I really enjoyed your message. ako

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I have a couple of question about samplers.    There are many motifs used in samplers – acorns, bird, strawberry…etc.   and I see those motifs in antique samplers (also in reproductions) which means they’ve been around for quite a while.   My question is…  have we created any new sampler motifs in our time ( late 20 century)??

What a wonderful discussion question! I think there are several things that will distinguish our samplers. First, we are the first to use synthetic fibers to such a large and varied degree.  I know we had rayon from 19xx on but blending filament in all these colors, neon rays, wisper, all these things are all pretty "modern".  And we have fabrics made of synthetics as well. The global combinations of techniques that we have now will probably also mark the late 20th century.  Before global communication became so easy, I doubt you would ever have had a sampler combining hardanger, pulled thread, cross stitch, goldwork, blackwork etc all into one work, because the people that did hardanger didn’t really know about the use of blackwork (or whatever). The last thing I can think of that we are contributing is modern fonts for lettering.  Since fonts are being invented all the time, as we use these we date the earliest that our samplers could have been created. I guess these aren’t exactly motifs, but they are things that may be used to date samplers to the 20th century in any case. Beverly  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - –         Department of Civil Engineering and Operations Research         Princeton University            Princeton, New Jersey, USA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a couple of question about samplers.    There are many motifs used in samplers – acorns, bird, strawberry…etc.   and I see those motifs in antique samplers (also in reproductions) which means they’ve been around for quite a while.   My question is…  have we created any new sampler motifs in our time ( late 20 century)?? We do enjoy reproducing the historic samplers (and I do too) and the question comes back to me "what about the samplers from our time? something which represents  beings in our time?"   Some designers create "old style looks" samplers ( and I do enjoy those too!) using the old lettering and motifs…. but hundreds years from now,  i wonder what people would think of the samplers created in late 20 century.    Will they find something significant in our samplers to tell the differences from other time period? I have no idea what will stand in time and represent the out time (could be non sampler design as well); only people in future would know.    I just started getting into samplers and I may have been ignorant about it….  but it is so interesting to me and i took a chance to post this!!! ako

There are some lovely samplers that were designed using all the fonts available on a Macintosh. Does anyone have the URL?  I used to but it’s long gone… — Cindy Brown Cross-stitcher, quilter, designer, and cat-lover "My candle burns at both ends. It will not last the night. But ah, my foes and oh, my friends, It gives a lovely light!"                         – Edna St. Vincent Millay

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Yes, future art historians will generally be able to date many needlework samplers from this era easily, often by just looking at a piece because much of the needlework design of this time has been reproduced by many stitchers and pretty well documented by way of copyrights and published patterns. Like antique furniture styles, new reproductions of old furniture and other popular objects that have been reproduced through the years, I would guess the reproduction needlework samplers will have their own similar market values and collectors with the original antiques being out of reach for the average collector. It would also depend on how rare and original these designs might be along with the quality of the stitching and condition, like all collectibles. Popular art motifs will often crop up on all types of everyday objects through the years. One recent and still somewhat popular motif is the Sunflower being seen everywhere from fabrics, paper goods, pottery and more. Think of all those ubiquitous Ducks, Geese and Amish inspired designs of 10 years ago or so. Along these lines is the "Country Look" still influencing designs with checked borders being another noticeable decorative element. Overall, I’d think some of the more original, contemporary designs of samplers will stand out as typical of needlework sampler designs stitched in the late 20th Century rather than reproduction sampler adaptations due to the use of brighter colors, certain color combinations and the more whimsical motifs used such as the contemporary "primitive" folk art style that’s very popular at the moment like flying Rabbits, the prevalence celestial images of the sun, moon, star and many angel designs for example. Then you have the back to nature or eco-green influence with all sorts of wild life pictured in contemporary samplers along with popular garden motifs heralding the renaissance of gardening all across the US with inages of bee hives, knot gardens and so on. Generally, popular decorative elements, attitude and events of an era are often reflected in the contemporary needlework styles of the time. — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures

  My question is…  have we created any – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – new sampler motifs in our time ( late 20 century)?? We do enjoy reproducing the historic samplers (and I do too) and the question comes back to me "what about the samplers from our time? something which represents  beings in our time?"   Some designers create "old style looks" samplers ( and I do enjoy those too!) using the old lettering and motifs…. but hundreds years from now,  i wonder what people would think of the samplers created in late 20 century.    Will they find something significant in our samplers to tell the differences from other time period? ako

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I have a couple of question about samplers.    There are many motifs used in samplers – acorns, bird, strawberry…etc.   and I see those motifs in antique samplers (also in reproductions) which means they’ve been around for quite a while.   My question is…  have we created any new sampler motifs in our time ( late 20 century)?? We do enjoy reproducing the historic samplers (and I do too) and the question comes back to me "what about the samplers from our time? something which represents  beings in our time?"   Some designers create "old style looks" samplers ( and I do enjoy those too!) using the old lettering and motifs…. but hundreds years from now,  i wonder what people would think of the samplers created in late 20 century.    Will they find something significant in our samplers to tell the differences from other time period? I have no idea what will stand in time and represent the out time (could be non sampler design as well); only people in future would know.    I just started getting into samplers and I may have been ignorant about it….  but it is so interesting to me and i took a chance to post this!!! ako

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Categories: Garden

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| | | It’s true. That’s one of the best parts of it all. Sometimes I’m more | | social with plants and animals than I am with humans! | | People always gravitate to those on the same intelligence level | But only if you’re stupid — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ "The sound of Howard Stern’s silence is the death rattle for free speech." Fight for your rights- register to vote  http://www.declareyourself.com/

Categories: Garden

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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can understand that.  I’ve been there (the bag of veggies being like $500.00 to me)  I try not to lose sight of where I’ve been and what it felt like. When I was a kid I had a friend who’s father was a local doctor.  This was in a rural area.  He came from a wealthy North Dakota ranching family and he was in medicine because that was his love.  He only charged 5 bucks for an office visit and most of the time gave you the medicine free instead of writing a prescription.  He frequently took things other than money as payment. I vividly remember my friend got as her first car (old and beat up) one that her father had gotten in payment for an operation he had done.  He didn’t want to take it but the patient insisted as he didn’t "want no charity".  He once came home with a couple of fighting cocks too.  (Much better for the roosters, I must say.) Loki Thanks, Dana. I think I inherited this way of taking care of business from my father who passed away last year at the age of 80. He was a veterinarian in a small town, and although we never had a lot of money, we never went hungry. I like doing it this way because some people just don’t have the money to pay (and boy do I know that feeling well), but hate to take ‘charity’. After all, to some people, a bag of veggies is equal to $500 to other people. All depends on the perspective. Blessings Mama J.

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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, I still barter for things.  I’m getting all of my furniture reupholstered that way. It isn’t in payment for anything "witchy" just for something I have that they would take in trade.  I loaned out a piece of garden equipment the other day and would have given it freely but the person wanted to "pay" me so I told him that I would appreciate it if he would edge my lawn and I’d take that as payment.  He agreed. I kinda like the barter system myself. Loki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes This really disturbs me(it’s time to bitch about it) You wouldn’t try selling a bible, would you? <snip Umm, well, I have to agree with regards to the teaching side of things, how can you charge for a state of mind. But lets face it, the skills that go into witchcraft for me cover everything from smithing steel, to readings, to councelling, to dealing with injuries, and sorting out rehab for all sorts. This I definitley charge for considering the time, patience, hard work, and bucks that went into legitimising the whole thing. (An insured witch….snigger)it still goes on just to stay ahead of the game. Yep, definitely charge. The only snag is people should be paying what they can afford, not what you can bleed out of them. I’m not the heartless bastard I’d like to be sometimes, and sometimes folks just need help, and simply can’t pay. That I think is the price. Having to do any job that comes through the door, knowing thats the price for being able to do any job that comes through the door. Does that make sense? Example, my Tel/fax/answer machine came from a barter job, as did my anvil ( the later was a case of "oh by the way, can you use this….") Funny old world ay? — Al

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Thanks, Dana. I think I inherited this way of taking care of business from my father who passed away last year at the age of 80. He was a veterinarian in a small town, and although we never had a lot of money, we never went hungry. I like doing it this way because some people just don’t have the money to pay (and boy do I know that feeling well), but hate to take ‘charity’. After all, to some people, a bag of veggies is equal to $500 to other people. All depends on the perspective. Blessings Mama J.

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writes This really disturbs me(it’s time to bitch about it) You wouldn’t try selling a bible, would you?

<snip Umm, well, I have to agree with regards to the teaching side of things, how can you charge for a state of mind. But lets face it, the skills that go into witchcraft for me cover everything from smithing steel, to readings, to councelling, to dealing with injuries, and sorting out rehab for all sorts. This I definitley charge for considering the time, patience, hard work, and bucks that went into legitimising the whole thing. (An insured witch….snigger)it still goes on just to stay ahead of the game. Yep, definitely charge. The only snag is people should be paying what they can afford, not what you can bleed out of them. I’m not the heartless bastard I’d like to be sometimes, and sometimes folks just need help, and simply can’t pay. That I think is the price. Having to do any job that comes through the door, knowing thats the price for being able to do any job that comes through the door. Does that make sense? Example, my Tel/fax/answer machine came from a barter job, as did my anvil ( the later was a case of "oh by the way, can you use this….") Funny old world ay? — Al

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In the old days, the community took care of the spiritual leaders and healers. Donations, gifts, whatever, the community made sure the leaders and healers had a home, food, often clothing, whatever. Today that is not the case and, although I don’t ‘charge’ fees for what I do, I can see nothing wrong with it. I do get donations for what I do, but they could not be called fees since for one type of healing I might get anything from fresh veggies from someone’s garden to my grocery budget for the week. All depends on who the work is being done for. Mama J.

I love that Mama J.  Reminds me of my grandfather.  He was a small town doctor back when they made house calls.  He would often accept fresh vegetables as payment for his services.  I even heard him say he accepted a crate of chickens once.  I found this funny because my grandmother told me stories on how back then, they had their own chicken coop.  Also, as far back as I could remember, my grandfather grew one of the biggest gardens I have ever seen.  Gardening was his love.  He always accepted these forms of payment because he knew it was all the people could afford and they were proud that they were able to offer payment of something.  They would have been insulted if he turned down their offer and provided his services for free.  He is still well remembered and loved in this area.  He is 88 years old and has been retired for years. Dana B*B

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As I said in my posting, I don’t charge but I see nothing wrong with charging. The high priest of my coven is one of the best readers around and he charges. It’s the way the world is today. After all, not all of us make enough money ‘not’ to charge for some work. My healings, whether spiritual or herbal, are usually by donation. That’s me. I apparently have what one friend has called a "poverty wish". However, at times, I have received many times what I would have charged after telling someone they could pay me what they felt the work was worth to them. That’s appreciation! Blessings Mama J.

I have always looked at charging for readings and such like this:  If I do a reading for a friend, or coven member, I know the energy I expend will be returned to me in some way from them (maybe one of them will do a reading for me, or give me a backrub, or lend me money, or help me move – something)  but if I do a reading for a stranger, one way I can get energy back from them is to get money from them;  they invested time and energy in gaining that money, it has some of their energy associated with it, and it transfers to me; I will never get rich doing readings, but I see nothing wrong with being replenished. Ishtar

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As I said in my posting, I don’t charge but I see nothing wrong with charging. The high priest of my coven is one of the best readers around and he charges. It’s the way the world is today. After all, not all of us make enough money ‘not’ to charge for some work. My healings, whether spiritual or herbal, are usually by donation. That’s me. I apparently have what one friend has called a "poverty wish". However, at times, I have received many times what I would have charged after telling someone they could pay me what they felt the work was worth to them. That’s appreciation! Blessings Mama J.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This really disturbs me(it’s time to bitch about it) You wouldn’t try selling a bible, would you? I mean, everyone literally goes *running* from Jehovah’s witnesses so that is probably a bad analogy.. but why do some people have the nerve to charge $99 a month or whatever for so-called "home study" courses in witchcraft? What kind of asshole do you have to be to be putting such prices on knowledge? … While in principle I don’t have a problem with someone selling their knowledge (by charging for teaching a class or charging for a book), in practice what you’re talking about bothers me. Charging for Tae Kwon Do classes, for example, or charging for a book on C++ programming is one thing. Charging for a witchcraft home study course is another. It bothers me because for the most part the people charging for these classes are doing little more than preying on people who don’t know better and feeding them garbage. When churches or spiritual groups charge or demand a tithe, I wonder if the leaders of that spiritual movement are trying to expand consciousness, or just skinning the marks. When it comes to spirituality, people are vulnerable and often go into it with their heart totally open. Grabbing and squeezing that heart to see how many dollars will fall out is deplorable. I would avoid witchcraft "home study" courses like the plague. Especially since there are way too many groups out there, and way too many reputable books. And I would also avoid covens who charge anything beyond helping to chip in and buy candles and other supplies.                                            - Bill — William Edward Woody                 | In Phase Consulting http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody | http://www.znd.net/inphase

Hmmm, I have always seen the Wicca as a Priest/esshood.  There are seminaries that charge money for in depth training in religion, and training to spiritually "lead" a group of people, how is charging for an organized class different for us?  And Bibles are not cheap, Solitaire, and are for sale, and have been since the invention of the printing press. Ishtar

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: While in principle I don’t have a problem with someone selling their : knowledge (by charging for teaching a class or charging for a book), : in practice what you’re talking about bothers me. Charging for : Tae Kwon Do classes, for example, or charging for a book on C++ : programming is one thing. Charging for a witchcraft home study course : is another. : It bothers me because for the most part the people charging for these : classes are doing little more than preying on people who don’t know : better and feeding them garbage. : When churches or spiritual groups charge or demand a tithe, I wonder : if the leaders of that spiritual movement are trying to expand : consciousness, or just skinning the marks. When it comes to spirituality, : people are vulnerable and often go into it with their heart totally : open. Grabbing and squeezing that heart to see how many dollars : will fall out is deplorable. : I would avoid witchcraft "home study" courses like the plague. : Especially since there are way too many groups out there, and way : too many reputable books. And I would also avoid covens who charge : anything beyond helping to chip in and buy candles and other supplies. :                                             – Bill I have to agree with you, Bill. Most reputable Wiccans hold the belief that charging money for religious training or practice is *wrong*. We were given this gift of our religion from the Gods and to make money off that is not ethical to most of us. However, no one expects or should expect others to pay for things like rental of a hall, *all* the candles and incense all the time, etc. So, asking for donations to defray the cost of public rituals, supplies, or utilities is okay in my book. If someone can and wants to put in something, they can. If they can’t, fine. If they just don’t want to, then fine. However, reading Tarot, Runes, or making a chart for someone certainly *doesn’t* fall into this catagory. These things are skills, and certainly are *not* limited to those who follow our Path. If I teach a class in Candle Magick, I am *not* teaching a class in religion, but teaching a skill that I developed over years of practice. Same goes for teaching the Tarot, Astrology, or any other *skill*. BB Marjorie HPs, Our Lady of the Sycamores

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This really disturbs me(it’s time to bitch about it) You wouldn’t try selling a bible, would you? I mean, everyone literally goes *running* from Jehovah’s witnesses so that is probably a bad analogy.. but why do some people have the nerve to charge $99 a month or whatever for so-called "home study" courses in witchcraft? What kind of asshole do you have to be to be putting such prices on knowledge? …

While in principle I don’t have a problem with someone selling their knowledge (by charging for teaching a class or charging for a book), in practice what you’re talking about bothers me. Charging for Tae Kwon Do classes, for example, or charging for a book on C++ programming is one thing. Charging for a witchcraft home study course is another. It bothers me because for the most part the people charging for these classes are doing little more than preying on people who don’t know better and feeding them garbage. When churches or spiritual groups charge or demand a tithe, I wonder if the leaders of that spiritual movement are trying to expand consciousness, or just skinning the marks. When it comes to spirituality, people are vulnerable and often go into it with their heart totally open. Grabbing and squeezing that heart to see how many dollars will fall out is deplorable. I would avoid witchcraft "home study" courses like the plague. Especially since there are way too many groups out there, and way too many reputable books. And I would also avoid covens who charge anything beyond helping to chip in and buy candles and other supplies.                                             – Bill — William Edward Woody                 | In Phase Consulting http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody | http://www.znd.net/inphase

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Categories: Garden

Question:

I just find all of human history interesting. Human migrations are much more complex than first thought. But it doesn’t really make that much of a difference with today’s problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry about the racist crap and all with rhesus monkey still in the tree. I just wanted to point that the druids were celts and the Pre-IndoEuropeans were of a different genetic stock.

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PARABLE OF THE NOXIOUS STINKWEED There was a field that had lain fallow for a very long time. One day, however, it was rediscovered and people begin to return to it. Some were gardeners who planted in the rich soil. Sometimes they used too much bullshit for fertilizer, and the plants would die, but the good gardener soon learned the right balance to produce a healthy yield. Others would come to the garden to sample the produce. Still others just liked to sit in the field and read books about gardening. All was good. Then one day, the gardeners noticed a strange smell. It was the Noxious Stinkweed! The Noxious Stinkweed was a malodorous, slightly addictive pest that made eyes water, and if ingested, would cause internal pain and smelly excrement to flow from orifices. Why would anyone introduce Noxious Stinkweed to the gardens? Maybe it was because an inexperienced gardener bought bad seed from a corrupt merchant. Or maybe the gardener was from an unsophisticated backwater where the yokels thought it tasted good with corn bread. Or maybe the gardener was just plain evil, and was jealous of the good gardener’s crops. Whatever the reason, the other gardeners had some ponderin’ to do. Some knew the dangers and would not let the Noxious Stinkweed into their gardens. Others, with a noble but misguided sense of "tolerance" and "diversity", let the Noxious Stinkweed in. Still others, with a secret addiction to Noxious Stinkweed, encouraged its growth. But the Wise Gardener, seeing how the Noxious Stinkweed had ruined a similar field just down the lane, and had choked out the good crop and had attracted skinheaded addicts to the fields, pointed to the pest and yelled "Be gone Noxious Stinkweed!" And he took his trowel to it. And the Wise Gardner enjoyed a good harvest. Let those with noses smell.

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    Of course, you’re right Mike. When typing that post last night, I was annoyed about other stuff. Moral, don’t post if you’re in a bad mood, even if it seems like a good idea at the time. I seem to have dropped to the standard of other posters, hopefully only temporarily. Sorry to all concerned, including you especially. Believe it or not, I can come up with rational discussions.     If we were meeting in person, I would be offering you a compensatory pint of beer.

But this site might seem important to you since the Picts were really caucasian. http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article7.html The human species was formerly classified into the Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroe racial groups. I manually flipped through my gage Canadian dictionary for the definition of Caucasian. Caucasian 1. a native or inhabitant of the Caucasus, a

mountainous region in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the S Soviet Union. 2. Caucasoid. -adj. 1 of or having to do with the Caucasus or its inhabitants. 2 Caucasoid. Cau-ca-soid -adj. 1 European (def 2). 2 Obsolete. of or having to do with the racial group including the European and Indian races. The human species was formerly classified into the Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroe racial groups. -n European (def 3). 2 a member of the European or Indian race. Another entry from an online dictionary is as follows: Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe,(note present basques) northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use. See Usage Note at race1. Of or relating to the Caucasus region or its peoples, languages, or cultures. Of or relating to a group of three language families spoken in the region of the Caucasus mountains, including Chechen, Abkhaz, and the Kartvelian languages. Anthropology. A member of the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use. A native or inhabitant of the Caucasus. The Caucasian language family. So it seems the present Basques have the longest living history as being Europeans. I have racial characteristics most prominent in the Y chromosome present in Pre-IndoEuropean inhabitants such as bodily hair, sideburns, somewhat darkish to pale coloured skin, shorter arm length, hazel eyes, no carved buttocks, double chin, and most importantly the rh-factor which occurs in some Europeans and is absent in most

Africans.Obviously not – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – characteristic of the Negroe or Asian. And probably somewhat off the present Indo-European of later Celtic and Anglo stock who lacks the bodily hair, rh- factor, and double chin. They have blond golden locks, lack bodily hair (similar to Negroe), have a chin without a dimple (similar to Negroe) and belong to the O or B blood group which is a recessive trait unlike unlike O rh-(note the high proportion of Negroes who belong to blood group B) http://www.bloodbook.com/world-abo.html ). Weaker and inferior recessive genes such as blond hair are the result of the blond tribe having thier genes adapting to environment rather than the other way around. They lived in the North, but they let the environment take over their genes which is different from Inuit(Eskimo), or my tribe which has survived living in the North with or without hats, and a stronger more resilient DNA for dark hair which occurs in most asians and was present in cro-magnom man. Those Inuit wandered into Europe and the Caucasus about 26,000 years ago during the peak of glaciation and while the glaciers were retreating. The blond tribe was still in North Libya of Africa who may have mixed with the Africans. Academics are in agreement that the blond tribe then fanned out to northern and western Europe. Similar migrations took place from the Caucasus but archaeologists also tell us that they cannot have been in the Caucasus or the Ukraine for more than 8,000 years. So where did they come from if they were not Caucasians? It so happens that there was another population of blond people, located on the north east coast of Libya in North Africa, especially in Cyrenaica, which is wedged between Libya and Egypt, and which may well be the place where the original blond mutation came about. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/RH-NEG.htm  It seems my tribe was in Europe while yours wandered out of Africa a bit later and got a bit of an upper hand when discovering metal in Greece. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/eskimo.htm http://www.concentric.net/~Maguire/Hill.pdf Negroes have no double chin, lack bodily hair, have carved buttocks, and most belong to the O+ blood group. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/saharan.htm

Response:

Sorry about the racist crap and all with rhesus monkey still in the tree. I just wanted to point that the druids were celts and the Pre-IndoEuropeans were of a different genetic stock. This site might seem important to you since the Picts were really caucasian. http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article7.html The human species was formerly classified into the Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroe racial groups. I manually flipped through my gage Canadian dictionary for the definition of Caucasian. Caucasian 1. a native or inhabitant of the Caucasus, a mountainous region in the S Soviet Union. 2. Caucasoid. -adj. 1 of or having to do with the Caucasus or its inhabitants. 2 Caucasoid. Cau-ca-soid -adj. 1 European (def 2). 2 Obsolete. of or having to do with the racial group including the European and Indian races. The human species was formerly classified into the Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroe racial groups. -n European (def 3). 2 a member of the European or Indian race. Another entry from an online dictionary is as follows: Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe,(note present basques) northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use. See Usage Note at race1. Of or relating to the Caucasus region or its peoples, languages, or cultures. Of or relating to a group of three language families spoken in the region of the Caucasus mountains, including Chechen, Abkhaz, and the Kartvelian languages. Anthropology. A member of the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use. A native or inhabitant of the Caucasus. The Caucasian language family. So it seems the present Basques have the longest living history as being Europeans. I have racial characteristics most prominent in the Y chromosome present in Pre-IndoEuropean inhabitants such as bodily hair, sideburns, somewhat darkish to pale coloured skin, shorter arm length, hazel eyes, no carved buttocks, double chin, and most importantly the rh-factor which occurs in some Europeans and is absent in most Africans.Obviously not characteristic of the Negroe or Asian. And probably somewhat off the present Indo-European of later Celtic and Anglo stock who lacks the bodily hair, rh- factor, and double chin. They have blond golden locks, lack bodily hair (similar to Negroe), have a chin without a dimple (similar to Negroe) and belong to the O or B blood group which is a recessive trait unlike unlike O rh-(note the high proportion of Negroes who belong to blood group B) http://www.bloodbook.com/world-abo.html ). Weaker and inferior recessive genes such as blond hair are the result of the blond tribe having thier genes adapting to environment rather than the other way around. They lived in the North, but they let the environment take over their genes which is different from Inuit(Eskimo), or my tribe which has survived living in the North with or without hats, and a stronger more resilient DNA for dark hair which occurs in most asians and was present in cro-magnom man. Those Inuit wandered into Europe and the Caucasus about 26,000 years ago during the peak of glaciation and while the glaciers were retreating. The blond tribe was still in North Libya of Africa who may have mixed with the Africans. Academics are in agreement that the blond tribe then fanned out to northern and western Europe. Similar migrations took place from the Caucasus but archaeologists also tell us that they cannot have been in the Caucasus or the Ukraine for more than 8,000 years. So where did they come from if they were not Caucasians? It so happens that there was another population of blond people, located on the north east coast of Libya in North Africa, especially in Cyrenaica, which is wedged between Libya and Egypt, and which may well be the place where the original blond mutation came about. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/RH-NEG.htm  It seems my tribe was in Europe while yours wandered out of Africa a bit later and got a bit of an upper hand when discovering metal in Greece. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/eskimo.htm http://www.concentric.net/~Maguire/Hill.pdf Negroes have no double chin, lack bodily hair, have carved buttocks, and most belong to the O+ blood group. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/saharan.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – why are you introducing racist shit into a druid newsgroup? Go away. This information isn’t racist, it just isn’t relevant to the group. Negroes have no double chin, lack bodily hair, have carved buttocks, and most belong to the O+ blood group.(Rhesus still in the tree eating vegetarian bananas)

Response:

But this site might seem important to you since the Picts were really caucasian. http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article7.html The human species was formerly classified into the Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroe racial groups. I manually flipped through my gage Canadian dictionary for the definition of Caucasian. Caucasian 1. a native or inhabitant of the Caucasus, a mountainous region in the S Soviet Union. 2. Caucasoid. -adj. 1 of or having to do with the Caucasus or its inhabitants. 2 Caucasoid. Cau-ca-soid -adj. 1 European (def 2). 2 Obsolete. of or having to do with the racial group including the European and Indian races. The human species was formerly classified into the Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroe racial groups. -n European (def 3). 2 a member of the European or Indian race. Another entry from an online dictionary is as follows: Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe,(note present basques) northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use. See Usage Note at race1. Of or relating to the Caucasus region or its peoples, languages, or cultures. Of or relating to a group of three language families spoken in the region of the Caucasus mountains, including Chechen, Abkhaz, and the Kartvelian languages. Anthropology. A member of the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use. A native or inhabitant of the Caucasus. The Caucasian language family. So it seems the present Basques have the longest living history as being Europeans. I have racial characteristics most prominent in the Y chromosome present in Pre-IndoEuropean inhabitants such as bodily hair, sideburns, somewhat darkish to pale coloured skin, shorter arm length, hazel eyes, no carved buttocks, double chin, and most importantly the rh-factor which occurs in some Europeans and is absent in most Africans.Obviously not characteristic of the Negroe or Asian. And probably somewhat off the present Indo-European of later Celtic and Anglo stock who lacks the bodily hair, rh- factor, and double chin. They have blond golden locks, lack bodily hair (similar to Negroe), have a chin without a dimple (similar to Negroe) and belong to the O or B blood group which is a recessive trait unlike unlike O rh-(note the high proportion of Negroes who belong to blood group B) http://www.bloodbook.com/world-abo.html ). Weaker and inferior recessive genes such as blond hair are the result of the blond tribe having thier genes adapting to environment rather than the other way around. They lived in the North, but they let the environment take over their genes which is different from Inuit(Eskimo), or my tribe which has survived living in the North with or without hats, and a stronger more resilient DNA for dark hair which occurs in most asians and was present in cro-magnom man. Those Inuit wandered into Europe and the Caucasus about 26,000 years ago during the peak of glaciation and while the glaciers were retreating. The blond tribe was still in North Libya of Africa who may have mixed with the Africans. Academics are in agreement that the blond tribe then fanned out to northern and western Europe. Similar migrations took place from the Caucasus but archaeologists also tell us that they cannot have been in the Caucasus or the Ukraine for more than 8,000 years. So where did they come from if they were not Caucasians? It so happens that there was another population of blond people, located on the north east coast of Libya in North Africa, especially in Cyrenaica, which is wedged between Libya and Egypt, and which may well be the place where the original blond mutation came about. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/RH-NEG.htm  It seems my tribe was in Europe while yours wandered out of Africa a bit later and got a bit of an upper hand when discovering metal in Greece. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/eskimo.htm http://www.concentric.net/~Maguire/Hill.pdf Negroes have no double chin, lack bodily hair, have carved buttocks, and most belong to the O+ blood group. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/saharan.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Since I’m reading this on soc.culture.scottish, I don’t see the relevance to Scotland. So fuck off and think again about all the newsgroups you want to crosspost onto. You really are a fucking arsehole. — = Ian Smith, Colorado Springs, CO, USA.                        = = 38

Categories: Garden

Question:

im about to move to Ireland from the west coast of canada where ive been gardening for about 7 years i especially find an interest in roses and Bamboo. Any advice on gardening these in Ireland would be appreciated as i hope to start working on gardens there * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

My advice is limited, but may help you nonetheless; if you’re going to grow red roses in Ireland, then you can’t go wrong with the following reds in that less-than-red-rose-friendly climate: Red Planet, Precious Platinum, Red Devil and Scarlet Knight. The first two, especially, are outstanding; they are (in my opinion) essentially the only two red HT’s that will flourish without spraying in foggy Pacifica, California.. Specializing in old garden and modern classic roses that are ever-blooming and easy to grow. See  our new webpage: 85 varieties listed, many with color photos! TEN GREAT PLANTS FOR JUST $60.00, INCLUDING PRIORITY MAIL SHIPPING! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– Newsgroups: rec.gardens.roses im about to move to Ireland from the west coast of canada where ive been gardening for about 7 years i especially find an interest in roses and Bamboo. Any advice on gardening these in Ireland would be appreciated as i hope to start working on gardens there * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Categories: Garden

Question:

So Garry, Alice is back!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, Petrose, you *did* get me to nibble on your bait in the Short Lists post, but I wasn’t able to really engage in an exchange about Xeriscape roses or rose tolerances, etc. (mainly due to various computer problems, which I have managed to circumvent).  Now, I can see that in dealing with you, semantics are extremely important.  You did throw in the modifier "thrive" after your initial post, so some of us jumped on that.  "Grow" and "thrive" offer two different sets of criteria, I’ll admit, and we need to get our terms straight here.  And I’m beginning to think that perhaps you have your own meanings for words and we may need to make our definitions more precise. Growing roses for exhibition purposes is really just one area of pleasure indulged in by rosarians.  Even though this is *your* primary interest, you gotta acknowledge that many (dare I say *most*) people never intend to show a rose.  They want them looking nice in their gardens and decorating their living rooms.  Naturally, for these purposes they want healthy, vibrant, attractive blooms — but these adjectives can be applied to many roses that don’t *quite* meet exhibition standards.  So cut us all some slack, Judge! I’m going to include a couple of quotes I came across since this thread appeared and disappeared — just for the sake of semantics: On the first page of the introduction to Climbing Roses Steve Scanniello writes (in reference to climbers): "Many are so rugged and disease resistant that they can thrive and produce spectacular blooms even when they receive no care at all." In your terms, this is a pretty radical statement.  He says "thrive," "spectacular blooms," and "*no* care at all."  His selection of cultivars is heavy on the antiques, but he includes plenty of modern roses as well. This guy *does* know what he’s talking about. Then there is no less than the redoubtable Tom Liggett in the recent American Rose Annual, discussing the SJHRG (a garden that you have raved about). Tom writes, "This leads into something that has become a huge part of my personal and professional philosophy as a rose grower and nurseryman; the establishment of realistic goals for the maintenance and

appearance of roses – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -and gardens.  If we work too hard at growing roses, or any other fun pursuit, we will add to the stress of lives that today are already stress-filled. At that point, we might quit the hobby.  What a loss that would be, both to ourselves and to the greater gardening world."  I like Tom’s use of the word "realistic." Now, you’ve said, in so many words, in the past that people who don’t "care for their roses" (by your standards) might just as well not grow them — wasn’t there some crack about azaleas?  Tom seems to think that this would be a loss and I agree with him. Then Sam offered a comment about how sad he feels to see neglected, tired roses in worn-out soil.  I can’t agree more.  I recently stayed in a motel that had roses planted in strips between parking areas and the soil was dust — thin, grey, dead.  It made me itch to dump a few wheelbarrow-loads of manure on them and get busy with my secateurs.  But, of course, I didn’t.  I just averted my eyes and went into my room.  There are lots of roses in the condition of these and I can’t save ‘em all.  I am most definitely *not* promoting *neglect* of roses. But I *am* letting people know that they can find great satisfaction in their roses without being slaves to spray schedules, heavy watering, and other forms of the endless fussing that people often do with roses.  With careful selection of varieties, they can grow ‘em in many places that wouldn’t be recommended as "ideal" for roses and be pleased with the results of their efforts.  The roses that I recommend as "easy-care" are generally not HTs at all but are selected from the vast array of older classes and cultivars.  There are roses and there are *roses*.  I make an effort to provide my roses with a good place to grow — a site that is comfortable and suited to the individual plant, good fluffy rich soil, the "right amount" of water.  I’m not interested in having a garden full of scraggly, unloved-looking plants — no more than you are.  *But* (and here comes one of my big buts) I am also able to find intense pleasure in a rose that has a spot or two on a leaf or a flower that doesn’t quite reach the glory of a coffee table book photo.  They smell as sweet.

Response:

So Garry, Alice is back!!!

Yes, and in spades, too! Give Petrose heck, Alice! ;-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, Petrose, you *did* get me to nibble on your bait in the Short Lists post, but I wasn’t able to really engage in an exchange about Xeriscape roses or rose tolerances, etc. (mainly due to various computer problems, which I have managed to circumvent).  Now, I can see that in dealing with you, semantics are extremely important.  You did throw in the modifier "thrive" after your initial post, so some of us jumped on that.  "Grow" and "thrive" offer two different sets of criteria, I’ll admit, and we need to get our terms straight here.  And I’m beginning to think that perhaps you have your own meanings for words and we may need to make our definitions more precise. Growing roses for exhibition purposes is really just one area of pleasure indulged in by rosarians.  Even though this is *your* primary interest, you gotta acknowledge that many (dare I say *most*) people never intend to show a rose.  They want them looking nice in their gardens and decorating their living rooms.  Naturally, for these purposes they want healthy, vibrant, attractive blooms — but these adjectives can be applied to many roses that don’t *quite* meet exhibition standards.  So cut us all some slack, Judge! I’m going to include a couple of quotes I came across since this thread appeared and disappeared — just for the sake of semantics: On the first page of the introduction to Climbing Roses Steve Scanniello writes (in reference to climbers): "Many are so rugged and disease resistant that they can thrive and produce spectacular blooms even when they receive no care at all." In your terms, this is a pretty radical statement.  He says "thrive," "spectacular blooms," and "*no* care at all."  His selection of cultivars is heavy on the antiques, but he includes plenty of modern roses as well. This guy *does* know what he’s talking about. Then there is no less than the redoubtable Tom Liggett in the recent American Rose Annual, discussing the SJHRG (a garden that you have raved about). Tom writes, "This leads into something that has become a huge part of my personal and professional philosophy as a rose grower and nurseryman; the establishment of realistic goals for the maintenance and appearance of roses and gardens.  If we work too hard at growing roses, or any other fun pursuit, we will add to the stress of lives that today are already stress-filled. At that point, we might quit the hobby.  What a loss that would be, both to ourselves and to the greater gardening world."  I like Tom’s use of the word "realistic." Now, you’ve said, in so many words, in the past that people who don’t "care for their roses" (by your standards) might just as well not grow them — wasn’t there some crack about azaleas?  Tom seems to think that this would be a loss and I agree with him. Then Sam offered a comment about how sad he feels to see neglected, tired roses in worn-out soil.  I can’t agree more.  I recently stayed in a motel that had roses planted in strips between parking areas and the soil was dust — thin, grey, dead.  It made me itch to dump a few wheelbarrow-loads of manure on them and get busy with my secateurs.  But, of course, I didn’t.  I just averted my eyes and went into my room.  There are lots of roses in the condition of these and I can’t save ‘em all.  I am most definitely *not* promoting *neglect* of roses. But I *am* letting people know that they can find great satisfaction in their roses without being slaves to spray schedules, heavy watering, and other forms of the endless fussing that people often do with roses.  With careful selection of varieties, they can grow ‘em in many places that wouldn’t be recommended as "ideal" for roses and be pleased with the results of their efforts.  The roses that I recommend as "easy-care" are generally not HTs at all but are selected from the vast array of older classes and cultivars.  There are roses and there are *roses*.  I make an effort to provide my roses with a good place to grow — a site that is comfortable and suited to the individual plant, good fluffy rich soil, the "right amount" of water.  I’m not interested in having a garden full of scraggly, unloved-looking plants — no more than you are.  *But* (and here comes one of my big buts) I am also able to find intense pleasure in a rose that has a spot or two on a leaf or a flower that doesn’t quite reach the glory of a coffee table book photo.  They smell as sweet.

– Garry Williams  http://home.earthlink.net/~gdwill/

Response:

Judy Pineda (or somebody in the lost etiology of this post wrote): "On the first page of the introduction to Climbing Roses Steve Scanniello writes (in reference to climbers): "Many are so rugged and disease resistant that they can thrive and produce spectacular blooms even when they receive no care at all." Scanniello grows roses in Brooklyn where "rugged and disease" resistant means that they have thrived a season without being spray-painted. I suppose that tells us something but I am unconvinced. "Then there is no less than the redoubtable Tom Liggett in the recent American Rose Annual, discussing the SJHRG (a garden that you have raved about).Tom writes, "This leads into something that has become a huge part of my personal and professional philosophy as a rose grower and nurseryman; the establishment of realistic goals for the maintenance and appearance of roses and gardens.  If we work too hard at growing roses, or any other fun pursuit, we will add to the stress of lives that today are already stress-filled. At that point, we might quit the hobby.  What a loss that would be, both to ourselves and to the greater gardening world."  I like Tom’s use of the word "realistic."" I have seen Tom’s garden and the roses that he grows and suggest to those who have not met him that his term "realistic" in fact describes a very well maintained and high quality rose bush. He is not fastidious – he is in fact realistic.But do not for a moment imagine that Tom does not care for each rose under his care in other than with the most tender regard. "Then Sam offered a comment about how sad he feels to see neglected, tired roses in worn-out soil.  I can’t agree more." Nor could I – Sam expressed well what I was trying to say. Roses are invited guests in our gardens and they reward us well in their visit. Good manners suggest that we be good hosts.

Response:

Well, Petrose, you *did* get me to nibble on your bait in the Short Lists post, but I wasn’t able to really engage in an exchange about Xeriscape roses or rose tolerances, etc. (mainly due to various computer problems,

which I have managed to circumvent).  Now, I can see that in dealing with you, semantics are extremely important.  You did throw in the modifier "thrive" after your initial post, so some of us jumped on that.  "Grow" and "thrive" offer two different sets of criteria, I’ll admit, and we need to get our terms straight here.  And I’m beginning to think that perhaps you have your own meanings for words and we may need to make our definitions more precise. Growing roses for exhibition purposes is really just one area of pleasure indulged in by rosarians.  Even though this is *your* primary interest, you gotta acknowledge that many (dare I say *most*) people never intend to show a rose.  They want them looking nice in their gardens and decorating their living rooms.  Naturally, for these purposes they want healthy, vibrant, attractive blooms — but these adjectives can be applied to many roses that don’t *quite* meet exhibition standards.  So cut us all some slack, Judge! I’m going to include a couple of quotes I came across since this thread appeared and disappeared — just for the sake of semantics: On the first page of the introduction to Climbing Roses Steve Scanniello writes

(in reference to climbers): "Many are so rugged and disease resistant that they  can thrive and produce spectacular blooms even when they receive no care at all." In your terms, this is a pretty radical statement.  He says "thrive," "spectacular blooms," and "*no* care at all."  His selection of cultivars is heavy on the antiques, but he includes plenty of modern roses as well.  This guy *does* know what he’s talking about. Then there is no less than the redoubtable Tom Liggett in the recent American Rose Annual, discussing the SJHRG (a garden that you have raved about). Tom writes, "This leads into something that has become a huge part of my personal and professional philosophy as a rose grower and nurseryman; the establishment of realistic goals for the maintenance and appearance of roses and gardens.  If we work too hard at growing roses, or any other fun pursuit, we will add to the stress of lives that today are already stress-filled. At that point, we might quit the hobby.  What a loss that would be, both to ourselves and to the greater gardening world."  I like Tom’s use of the word "realistic." Now, you’ve said, in so many words, in the past that people who don’t "care for their roses" (by your standards) might just as well not grow them — wasn’t there some crack about azaleas?  Tom seems to think that this would be a loss and I agree with him. Then Sam offered a comment about how sad he feels to see neglected, tired roses in worn-out soil.  I can’t agree more.  I recently stayed in a motel that had roses planted in strips between parking areas and the soil was dust — thin, grey, dead.  It made me itch to dump a few wheelbarrow-loads of manure on them and get busy with my secateurs.  But, of course, I didn’t.  I just averted my eyes and went into my room.  There are lots of roses in the condition of these and I can’t save ‘em all.  I am most definitely *not* promoting *neglect* of roses. But I *am* letting people know that they can find great satisfaction in their roses without being slaves to spray schedules, heavy watering, and other forms of the endless fussing that people often do with roses.  With careful selection of varieties,

 they can grow ‘em in many places that wouldn’t be recommended as "ideal" for roses and be pleased with the results of their efforts.  The roses that I recommend as "easy-care" are generally not HTs at all but are selected from the vast array of older classes and cultivars.  There are roses and there are *roses*.  I make an effort to provide my roses with a good place to grow — a site that is comfortable and suited to the individual plant, good fluffy rich soil, the "right amount" of water.  I’m not interested in having a garden full of scraggly, unloved-looking plants — no more than you are.  *But* (and here comes one of my big buts) I am also able to find intense pleasure in a rose that has a spot or two on a leaf or a flower that doesn’t quite reach the glory of a coffee table book photo.  They smell as sweet.

Response: